robyn: if i can have everybody answer the same question, what do you come to work to do every day? and the answer to that is, because we are the custodians and we are responsible for the savings and the pensions of real people, like my mom and dad and your mom and dad, then we do a better job every day.

francine: it is the world's largest listed hedge fund manager, and after 240 years in existence, man group has a woman in charge for the very first time. robyn grew was promoted from president to chief executive last september. the high point of a 15-year career at the firm. the former barrister entered the world of finance three decades ago and never left. robyn: the speed of change, the impact, the global nature, the challenge of it just never stopped getting more and more infectious for me. francine: in this episode of "leaders with lacqua," i speak to robyn grew about diversity, purpose, and what the future holds in an ever-changing world. robyn grew, thank you so much for joining us on "leaders." the world is a bit strange. there are so many poly-crises, or whatever you want to call it. it is just difficult to get a handle of what comes next. robyn: yes, yes, that would be the shortest answer i could ever give, yes. it is difficult.

i think that if this year has taught us anything, it is that prediction is not our strongest suit, perhaps, and that is not just in relation to markets, but in relation to these big geopolitical events that we are still living with. francine: but it is quite incredible to think that we are in a better place. i feel like every six months there is like the doom and gloom crew saying, this is it, interest rates have gone too much, and we need to reevaluate what happens next, and yet the economy holds. robyn: i think that's right. i think when we talk about it and we have this conversation about higher for longer, which i still say out loud and then cross my fingers in some ways that maybe i'm going to be entirely wrong, but higher for longer. i think where the nuance is in that message is that what we are unlikely to see is 0%. we are probably unlikely to see 2%. we may see some 50 basis points adjustments, for sure, but i think what we have been signaled clearly from central banks is that they are not frightened of using policy to control inflation or to try and respond to inflation.

and i think that is the messaging we should all kind of get used to. last 10 years, 0%, free money. next 10 years, higher for longer with that slight nuance in the way that i described. francine: and i imagine that 2024 could be difficult because of volatility. robyn: and dispersion. francine: yeah, so it makes it harder actually to manage money. robyn: i think it does, and i think the denomination effect that we saw because of the kind of hiccups in the system with the banking crisis, with ldi, that also put a premium back into liquidity. so, what is your duration risk? what is your liquidity risk? how do you manage through these different economic cycles? and are you prepared, or are you ready for hedging? which means that, you know, let's remember what that means. it means that at times you are

going to do well, and at times you are not going to do well with the entirety of your portfolio. and that is ok. that actively managing your portfolio for these different changing economic cycles or behaviors is what you are supposed to be doing. francine: does it change how you lead man group? robyn: it changes because of the way that we position the organization. we are an organization that is diverse. our capabilities are diverse. we have different engines doing different things, be it on the quant side or on that fundamental discretionary side. we have products that are in the macro space, we have products in equities, we are long only, we are long/short, but we are seeing is clients are interested in more customized solutions, in solutions that actually answer the problem they have got or the challenge they have, rather than here is a product, you buy that or nothing else. so it changes in the way you deliver it to an organization, it changes the fact that value

that your driving towards is not just about, here is a product, but it is, here is a solution. francine: so what does it mean in terms of how you're focusing your energy on in 2024? i know you want to be in the private credit space, but i guess hiring is also something you need to think of carefully. robyn: we don't make widgets. what we have are highly talented individuals who are focused on being the very best they can be in the workplace, and delivering what they do. and that can be alpha in our engines, or it can be in our operations, or it can be in middle office department, or in our legal department. it is about a war on talent. so hiring the very best people, retaining, keeping those people, giving them opportunity, giving them a space where they can be the very best they can be is incredibly important. so, it is tech, it is talent, it is vision, it is about knowing that when people come to work every day, every single person at man group adds value and is valued. that is important. it's that moment, if i can have

everybody answer the same question, what do you come to work to do every day? and the answer to that is, because we are the custodians and we are responsible for the savings and pensions of real people, like my mom and dad and your mom and dad, then we do a better job every day. francine: so how do you hire? again, there is a war on talent, or there is a battle to get the very best. so, what do they want? robyn: they want -- so, it depends. i think that is the one size does not fit all thing. who doesn't want to be around really smart people? number one. who doesn't want to be around a place which values your input? who doesn't want to be in a place that doesn't seek to be better today than it was yesterday and better tomorrow than it is today? who doesn't want to be around a place which is actually interested in you as a person and interested in being capable of making you better? so, where do we go? we go broad, we go wide, we look

for difference, we look for energy and excitement. that person who is able to get energized. francine: you don't always hear that from a big finance chief executive. robyn: ok. i am not -- francine: is there a perception problem for finance? robyn: i don't think finance has done as good a job as we might in explaining the value we bring to society more generally. i don't cure cancer. that's not what i do. i wish i could. i mean, i wish i was that smart and capable to do that. but what we do is protect and enrich the savings and the pensions of people, people who have worked incredibly hard all of their lives and diligently put their money aside in their 401(k) or wherever it may be, and we are entrusted with that, and we can give them, if we do our job well, financial security. we can provide something that enables legacy investing, it enables access to health care, to education, to a roof over your head, to pay the bills, to

all of those things. that is a pretty important thing to do. francine: i mean, it is amazing, you seem to be filled with a big sense of purpose, which you do not often get from hedge fund managers. robyn: i have a big sense of purpose. i run a firm that has a big sense of purpose. and i think that energy is something we should put to work. when i sit down with big allocators and we talk about what it is we are both trying to do, it's the same. i think the day we forget that, and the day that i think about our numbers in sort of the institutional size numbers that we all talk about, we lose a bit of that sense of what we are here to do properly. francine: coming up, robyn grew on adapting to change in an uncertain future. robyn: i'm not good at predicting what the next year or the next five years are going to be. what we need to do is be flexible, is to understand and be dynamic. to think about the impacts of markets and changes.

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francine: from renewed geopolitical risks, to climate change, a new era for interest rates, and a different working reality, the world of finance is also adapting to change. i continue the conversation with man group chief executive, robyn grew. do you worry about what the future economic, i guess, footprint looks like for the world? robyn: so our job is to say, how do we think about what could happen? how do you stress your portfolio? how do you think about what your outcomes are today? people drawing their pensions today versus drawing their pensions 50 years from now? man group is 240 years old. we match the duration rather lately of our clients who are not thinking about just returns for a year from now, but are trying to think about what they're planning for 30 years from now. we are not good at predicting.

i am not good at predicting what the next year or the next five years are going to be. what we need to do is be flexible, is to understand and be dynamic, to think about the impacts of markets and changes. francine: are you more worried about geopolitics or about market functioning? robyn: i think the fact that we've now changed geopolitics to geoeconomics is something of an impact point. so, as we think about what happened when russia invaded ukraine, and the impact on our fossil fuel pricing, or you think about the worries and concerns around supply chains post-covid and the fact that these buffers, when you think about corporate real estate and the refinancing, is inevitable. it is not a 30 year mortgage. these are things coming up for refinance within the next three, four, five years. that's a lot of money being put to work. and we are in an environment where we look out onto the city, office buildings are in a different place and have a different level of occupancy than we have seen before.

so, these are big changes and geoeconomics i think are things that we have to take into consideration. francine: what do you worry about the most? do you have like a ranking or it is almost one and the same? it is just this huge transformational change? robyn: i think it is a transformational change. i think that we are going to see credit markets playing a role. i don't think that is a short-term thing. i think that is a real term thing. i think you will see lending tightening, you're going to see still a need for financing out there, but it is not all things are created equal. i am a big proponent of active management. i am a big proponent of credit. but not every active manager, or not every credit expert is going to be able to deliver in these environments. there is expertise and skill needed. how do i think about prioritization? i think about priorities in terms of capabilities. i think about being as skilled as we can be in data, in analytics, in tech, in credit, in multiple asset classes, and then being able to pivot those.

i think that is where i think about things. but do i think about, that is the number one thing i'm focusing on? i don't have the luxury of that. i think we have to think about all these things. francine: i mean, are you looking at acquisitions to be in certain spaces? robyn: we have always said we will grow the firm organically and we will always look for acquisitions to increase our capability on content for clients. i think what is interesting is we have completed our acquisition with private credit management in the u.s., in middle markets. i think what is interesting is that the multiples look more interesting. i think -- we have been talking about consolidation, right? we have been talking about consolidation since the gfc. since the gfc. this is one of those points i'm going to want to laugh about in a few years time from now, but i actually think as we look at the barriers to entry in this space, if we look about the cost of running our businesses, if we think about the scale that we need to operate at, i think -- and the multiples that we are

starting to see coming down, i think this could be an interesting time for consolidation. francine: but why has it been a long time coming? is it regulation, or there was just no appetite? robyn: i think -- i think when cash is free, it softens that. i think the moment where people need to deploy at scale in liquid markets has been something that has softened. if you look at trends, the trend has been in passive, it has been in private equity. if you think about the assets that no longer sit in the public domain, that has been our themes over the last 10 years. i think when private equity does not have quite as much cash, when that raising is harder, when lending is harder, these opportunities for niche spaces and expertise to come about, and they want scale. they need to be able to operate at scale. and having an organization that can deliver the amount of scale we put in play, the bit that perhaps is less sexy and exciting, but that

infrastructure, the ability to take businesses and grow them, that is what we do. francine: what do you think of the city of london? will it lose a bit of the luster? there is a lot it can offer. where do you see it in five years? robyn: you are looking at -- well, you are talking to a u.k.-listed ceo. i could not be more interested in u.k. plc. i think we have held such an extraordinary position in financial markets and generally. so anything we can do to keep that shine i think is important. but competition is high. and we should not, in the way we should not in our firms, sit on our hands and think that all our history is going to count for long if we don't keep running. so, i am a great believer that we drive and we continue to strike for u.k. plc. there is such a lot of innovation, creativity, and growth here. there is such a lot of expertise that sits in these small shores.

so, anything we can do to keep that alive and keep it at its top game, i am all for. but we operate as a global organization, and i'm going to go where there is strong capability to invest, where the markets are deeper, where the clients need us to be, and where we can find opportunity. and i'm going to continue to look for that. but i am a u.k.-listed ceo who can't help but want this to be great too. francine: up next, robyn grew on being a female leader in an industry traditionally dominated by men. robyn: i am hopeful that we are going to see a better reflection of difference at the top of every organization, be it financial services or broader than that. ♪

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francine: women make up less than a quarter of employees at the thousands of hedge funds and other alternative investment firms globally. they are even more of a minority in senior positions. so when man group appointed an all-female leadership team last year, it marked a massive shift for the company and a milestone for the industry. i continue the conversation with robyn grew. robyn, 240 years old, man group is. robyn: yes, not me. [laughter] francine: you are the first female chief executive of an institution 240 years old. robyn: yes. francine: is it -- should it

have been earlier? are you optimistic about the future for females in finance? robyn: i am hopeful that we are going to see a better reflection of difference at the top of every organization, be it financial services or broader than that. has it been a long time coming? i can't help but say, listen, it would be terrific to have seen more female ceo's before me. and i hope we are going to see a lot after me. but difference is important, and i think anything that enables us to put the most talented people at the top of organizations, and to lead those organizations with enthusiasm and capability is what we are after. so, i am hopeful that i am knocking down some doors, barriers, ceilings. francine: i mean, the first time someone meets you, it is like, the infectious energy, right, that people notice. is that how you lead? robyn: yes. yes. it is one of those things. i have been accused of being

many things over my time, but that sort of slight duracell bunny, ever-ready battery things, just keep it going, i am a bit that. i have an enthusiasm for what we do and a passion for what we do. it is, sometimes, like i am a big boom in the room, but it is something that i think is incredibly important. you don't do this job 98%. you do this job, if you can -- this is where my mathematicians hate me, when i say anything larger than 100%. but it is 100%. francine: were you always like that? robyn: yes. francine: or is it something that you've learned? it's just natural? robyn: yes, and it is what has forged my career. that willingness and that excitement to learn and be part of fixing things, doing things better, has been somewhat of a hallmark. i have a ridiculous enjoyment for learning and doing things. you know, i walk into any organization, any of our offices, and in the short journey, thankfully, in london

that you have from the zero to the fifth floor, if there's somebody in the elevator with me, i'm asking 1000 questions. they can't wait to get out of the door by the end of it in some ways. but it is that interesting what is going on and what is happening. and it is an interest in people. i am fundamentally driven by being interested in the people i work with and in the people who we are here to work for. francine: so you started as a criminal barrister? robyn: i did. francine: and then went into finance three decades ago? robyn: yeah, something like that. francine: what made you switch? robyn: the thing was this -- i loved being an advocate, and perhaps i think i'm still an advocate in many ways. so what happened was i was in the criminal and civil bar, and i thought i would do this commerce thing, i thought to myself, and i will go back and become a commercial barrister. and it sucked me in and i never went back. the speed of change, the impact, the global nature, the challenge of it just never stopped getting more and more infectious for me, and so that legal training, has it been useful?

yes. has the advocacy thing been perhaps more useful? probably. but it has been just the best journey. francine: do you have bad days, and if you do, who do you call? do you have a mentor? robyn: yes, who do you call? ghostbusters. [laughter] if i have a bad day, i have always been a half-full kind of person. every belief i have is that you make the best out of those tough days. of course there are tough days. of course there are days when i -- you put a challenge in front of you where your performance is not great, or where i feel like we could've done a better job. those are moments where you have got to move forward, you have to take the next step forward. and that is what i do. i think it is resilience. i think it is part and parcel of, perhaps, my makeup, is to be resilient. who do i turn to? i turn to friends and family, and i take a break.

i take a breather. although, normally not a very long a breather, because i just get too excited by other things. but i fill my life. i fill my life with the things that are really positive around me. i have a great family around me. i have an extraordinary wife and a son and parents and friends, and i am enriched by that. and so, that enables me to take the next step. francine: do you think there's a difference being a leader in 2024 to what it was like in even 2010? does leadership or chief executive jobs need to come with more of a sense of purpose and kind of more morally leading? robyn: i think that i don't know a different way of doing it then the way i do it, and that is with a sense of purpose, for sure. when you speak and you are in charge of an organization, i think it is incumbent upon leaders to be enthused and to be passionate and be engaged. i think when times are tough, when things are tricky in the world, i think it is important that you know that, and that you acknowledge that in your organizations.

and we have had some tough times in the world. beyond markets, in the world, for people to live their lives. we run global organizations with people who come from places that are now in war zones, or that are too close to borders where there are war zones. where the challenges have been very real post-covid, or where the issues are being felt materially in politics. and not to acknowledge that, i think, feels inauthentic. francine: when you are in charge of a big organization, it is tough being close to your employees. robyn: yes. francine: how do you do that? robyn: it is about communication, it is about being available and transparent.

it is about setting your stall out. who are we? what are we? what are we here to do? and how will we do that? how do we do that the best we can? my view is you do it by creating extraordinary and exceptional teams that have a focus, and that understand the humanity of that. and that is important. to do that, you need different people. to do that, you need to bridge. because people come with different backgrounds and different flavors of their experience of life. it is not an easy thing to do, it is just a thing we should do. francine: it is tough, right, also, i guess employing people that will say "no" to you. robyn: yes. francine: how much do you think of that, of being surrounded by people who will say, this is not a great idea? robyn: i think it is critical. if i am going to have people around me, their excellence needs to be something i hear. it's less likely -- i mean, my executive team might get cross at me at saying this, but it is

really not the most likely pool of people, from which the next brilliant idea is going to sprout and germinate. it's going to be levels and other people within the firm. we need to hear that, and it is important i am seen as capable of listening and changing my position. there are times when i am going to be less willing to change my position, but having somebody who is going to come from any part of your organization to say, hey, i feel this way about this issue and i don't think i am being heard, is important. francine: where is robyn grew in five years? [laughter] robyn: still duracell bunny-ing. i am the best answer to every battery life, but perhaps on a renewable, rechargeable basis. so, where am i? i hope still leading man group. i hope i'm looking back on the last five years and thinking how i can do it even better. i hope driving things with the same passion and enthusiasm, and i hope with the same brilliant

set of people around me. francine: robyn grew, thank you so much. robyn: you're very welcome. thanks for having me. ♪

jason: all right, so derek jeter. i went to show you something. alex: oh, my gosh. that must have been like 1996 to 1997. jason: seattle mariners. new york yankees.

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